REPLY TO HERMAN & PETERSON
Author: Daniel Simpson
By concluding their diatribe [1] with the words “properly understood”, Ed Herman and David Peterson reveal which of us is the “enforcer” trading in authoritarian demands to adhere to “Truth” (as opposed to facts supported by evidence).
I’ll confine my response to matters of fact relating to my original comments [2]. Herman and Peterson are not “serious dissenters from the party-line”, and they haven’t “challenged” anything except their credibility, by misrepresenting the known facts, despite being demonstrably aware of them [3]. I presume they regard this as lying when others do it.
The 8,000-plus death toll figure does not originate in any meaningful sense from a 1995 press release, as they claim [4]. It’s a tally of missing people, presumed murdered, more than three-quarters of whom have since been DNA-matched to the remains of corpses exhumed from mass graves [5]. If they had the remotest interest in the facts, Herman and Peterson would at least refer to this mounting substantiation of a death toll they call “incompatible with the basic arithmetic of Srebrenica numbers before and after July 1995” [6], and for which they say that “nothing close to confirming evidence has been forthcoming.” [7]
If they’re suggesting that these people killed themselves in large numbers, or weren’t murdered by Serbs (I’ll leave them to define what being killed “execution-style” means, since it’s presumably meant to mislead the uninformed), they need to provide evidence. They have none. They just blithely assert they died in combat, ignoring the evidence amassed by the ICTY [8], except for a few quotes they like the sound of (none of which tell us anything about the named human beings on the list of the missing [9], most of whom are now proven dead, having been exhumed from mass graves and DNA-matched).
To be clear, the ICTY’s summary sheet says [10]: “The Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the vast majority of those killed were not killed in combat, but were victims of executions.” It is true, of course, that we don’t yet know exactly how many were killed, but the most recent announcement by the body in charge of the DNA-matching programme states [11]: “The overall high matching rate between DNA extracted from these bone and blood samples leads ICMP to support an estimate of close to 8,100 individuals missing from the fall of Srebrenica.”
The main reason that the exact number has yet to be established directly undermines Herman and Peterson’s claims. To quote the ICTY again [12]: “If those buried in the mass graves had indeed been soldiers killed in battle, there would have been no need for Bosnian Serb forces to execute a massive cover-up campaign. And there is much evidence that proves that is exactly what they did in September and October of 1995. In order to cover up their initial crimes of killing civilians and prisoners of war, the Bosnian Serb forces committed another crime - they attempted to relocate the bodies. They used bulldozers and other heavy machinery to exhume a number of the mass gravesites and move the bodies to other locations.” Hence their dismembered state.
When asked to provide evidence that the list of the missing isn’t “authentic”, as they suggest [13], Herman and Peterson don’t attempt to prove that named people listed on it are alive, or never were. Instead, they change the subject, alleging (again with no evidence) that “Bosnian Serb lists of their dead and missing in the Srebrenica area don't interest [me]”. Presumably this means they accept they have nothing to support their earlier reference to “thousands of escapees” [14] among the 8,000.
They go on to say they “are perfectly forthright that [they] believe more civilians were killed during Operation Storm than in the aftermath of the fall of Srebrenica”, having stated that Operation Storm resulted in “over 1,000 civilians killed”. [15] Unless they’re saying “over 1,000” means more than 8,000, and they’re in sole possession of the evidence that demonstrates this, they need to prove that the vast majority of the 8,000 named Srebrenica missing (of whom more than 6,000 are now identified and dead) weren’t civilians. They have never attempted to do so because they can’t.
As for Diana Johnstone, she not only puts “Srebrenica massacre” in quotation marks [16] (and adds that a “myth” called “Srebrenica” was “perhaps being used even before it happened”), she puts “8,000” in quotation marks too, and refers to the “sacralization of the estimated number of victims” [17], despite by her own admission (in email correspondence) having paid no attention to any of the emerging evidence for years.
That her work is inaccurate and misleading is self-evident. Noam Chomsky agrees. Though he called it “very careful and outstanding” in his interview with Emma Brockes, he said “it may be wrong” [18]. In fact, he conceded it was, by telling the Guardian “there was no debate or disagreement about Srebrenica”, [19] insisting repeatedly that he’s never suggested there was, and stating unequivocally (in email correspondence) that he presumes standard accounts of what happened at Srebrenica to be accurate.
Herman and Peterson refer to the influence of “political bias on the worthiness and unworthiness of the victims”. To them, the dead civilians of Srebrenica are beyond unworthy. They don’t exist. This isn’t mere self-delusion. It’s a deliberate attempt to mislead people. As the Washington Post editor Ben Bradlee once said about the Gulf of Tonkin incident: “Misinformation? Disinformation? Deceit? Whatever! Lies.” [20]
I’ll confine my response to matters of fact relating to my original comments [2]. Herman and Peterson are not “serious dissenters from the party-line”, and they haven’t “challenged” anything except their credibility, by misrepresenting the known facts, despite being demonstrably aware of them [3]. I presume they regard this as lying when others do it.
The 8,000-plus death toll figure does not originate in any meaningful sense from a 1995 press release, as they claim [4]. It’s a tally of missing people, presumed murdered, more than three-quarters of whom have since been DNA-matched to the remains of corpses exhumed from mass graves [5]. If they had the remotest interest in the facts, Herman and Peterson would at least refer to this mounting substantiation of a death toll they call “incompatible with the basic arithmetic of Srebrenica numbers before and after July 1995” [6], and for which they say that “nothing close to confirming evidence has been forthcoming.” [7]
If they’re suggesting that these people killed themselves in large numbers, or weren’t murdered by Serbs (I’ll leave them to define what being killed “execution-style” means, since it’s presumably meant to mislead the uninformed), they need to provide evidence. They have none. They just blithely assert they died in combat, ignoring the evidence amassed by the ICTY [8], except for a few quotes they like the sound of (none of which tell us anything about the named human beings on the list of the missing [9], most of whom are now proven dead, having been exhumed from mass graves and DNA-matched).
To be clear, the ICTY’s summary sheet says [10]: “The Tribunal has established beyond a reasonable doubt that the vast majority of those killed were not killed in combat, but were victims of executions.” It is true, of course, that we don’t yet know exactly how many were killed, but the most recent announcement by the body in charge of the DNA-matching programme states [11]: “The overall high matching rate between DNA extracted from these bone and blood samples leads ICMP to support an estimate of close to 8,100 individuals missing from the fall of Srebrenica.”
The main reason that the exact number has yet to be established directly undermines Herman and Peterson’s claims. To quote the ICTY again [12]: “If those buried in the mass graves had indeed been soldiers killed in battle, there would have been no need for Bosnian Serb forces to execute a massive cover-up campaign. And there is much evidence that proves that is exactly what they did in September and October of 1995. In order to cover up their initial crimes of killing civilians and prisoners of war, the Bosnian Serb forces committed another crime - they attempted to relocate the bodies. They used bulldozers and other heavy machinery to exhume a number of the mass gravesites and move the bodies to other locations.” Hence their dismembered state.
When asked to provide evidence that the list of the missing isn’t “authentic”, as they suggest [13], Herman and Peterson don’t attempt to prove that named people listed on it are alive, or never were. Instead, they change the subject, alleging (again with no evidence) that “Bosnian Serb lists of their dead and missing in the Srebrenica area don't interest [me]”. Presumably this means they accept they have nothing to support their earlier reference to “thousands of escapees” [14] among the 8,000.
They go on to say they “are perfectly forthright that [they] believe more civilians were killed during Operation Storm than in the aftermath of the fall of Srebrenica”, having stated that Operation Storm resulted in “over 1,000 civilians killed”. [15] Unless they’re saying “over 1,000” means more than 8,000, and they’re in sole possession of the evidence that demonstrates this, they need to prove that the vast majority of the 8,000 named Srebrenica missing (of whom more than 6,000 are now identified and dead) weren’t civilians. They have never attempted to do so because they can’t.
As for Diana Johnstone, she not only puts “Srebrenica massacre” in quotation marks [16] (and adds that a “myth” called “Srebrenica” was “perhaps being used even before it happened”), she puts “8,000” in quotation marks too, and refers to the “sacralization of the estimated number of victims” [17], despite by her own admission (in email correspondence) having paid no attention to any of the emerging evidence for years.
That her work is inaccurate and misleading is self-evident. Noam Chomsky agrees. Though he called it “very careful and outstanding” in his interview with Emma Brockes, he said “it may be wrong” [18]. In fact, he conceded it was, by telling the Guardian “there was no debate or disagreement about Srebrenica”, [19] insisting repeatedly that he’s never suggested there was, and stating unequivocally (in email correspondence) that he presumes standard accounts of what happened at Srebrenica to be accurate.
Herman and Peterson refer to the influence of “political bias on the worthiness and unworthiness of the victims”. To them, the dead civilians of Srebrenica are beyond unworthy. They don’t exist. This isn’t mere self-delusion. It’s a deliberate attempt to mislead people. As the Washington Post editor Ben Bradlee once said about the Gulf of Tonkin incident: “Misinformation? Disinformation? Deceit? Whatever! Lies.” [20]
REFERENCES
[1] http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/hp081209.html
[2] The original Media Lens thread, since deleted, can be viewed here: http://raouldjukanovic.wordpress.com/files/2009/11/herman-and-peterson.pdf
[3] Aside from the evidence laid out here, see, among other examples, the exchanges here: http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Srebrenica-debate.htm and here: http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/5972
[4] See page two of http://www.monthlyreview.org/1007herman-peterson1.php and http://www.srebrenica-report.com/politics.htm [and for counter-arguments to both, see http://www.glypx.com/balkanwitness/Herman-FPIF.htm and http://www.glypx.com/BalkanWitness/Srebrenica-debate.htm respectively]
[5] http://www.ic-mp.org/press-releases/dna-results-of-the-international-commission- on-missing-persons-reveal-the-identity-of-6186-srebrenica-victims-dnk-izvjestaji- medunarodne-komisije-za-nestale-osobe-icmp-otkrili-identitete-6186-sreb/
[6] http://www.srebrenica-report.com/conclusions.htm
[7] http://www.monthlyreview.org/1007herman-peterson2.php
[8] For a brief overview, see: http://www.icty.org/x/file/Outreach/view_from_hague/jit_srebrenica_en.pdf then read on: http://www.icty.org/action/cases/4
[9] A list, readily available to Herman before publication of “The Politics of the Srebrenica Massacre”, referenced in [3] above, can be seen here: http://www.domovina.net/srebrenica/page_006/Preliminarni_spisak_Srebrenica_1995.pdf
[10] http://www.icty.org/x/file/Outreach/view_from_hague/jit_srebrenica_en.pdf
[11] For source, see [5] above
[12] See [10] above
[13] http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/hp081209.html
[14] For sources, see [4] above
[15] http://www.monthlyreview.org/1007herman-peterson2.php
[16] http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone10122005.html
[17] ibid.
[18] http://www.chomsky.info/onchomsky/20051031.htm
[19] http://www.chomsky.info/letters/20051113.htm
[20] From “Deceit and dishonesty - The first James Cameron Memorial Lecture,” By Ben Bradlee (The Guardian, 29 April, 1987)
posted by Srebrenica Genocide at 9:32 PM
4 Comments:
@ Daniel Simpson said: "Instead, they [Herman and Peterson] change the subject, alleging (again with no evidence) that 'Bosnian Serb lists of their dead and missing in the Srebrenica area don't interest [me].'"
Daniel, the list of 3,000+ Serbs that were allegedly killed around Srebrenica is a by-product of deliberately misleading Serbian propaganda under the leadership of right-wing nationalist Milivoje Ivanisevic.
The most up-to-date analysis of Serb casualties in the region comes from the Sarajevo-based Research and Documentation Center, a non-partisan institution with a multiethnic staff, whose data have been collected, processed, checked, compared and evaluated by international team of experts. According to the RDC only 480 Serbs died around Srebrenica in a period of 1991-1995 (not 3,000+). In 1992 alone, Serbs slaughtered approximately 1,000 Bosniaks in Srebrenica (3 years before the genocide). Furthermore, contrary to propaganda allegations, there were no massacres of Serbs around Srebrenica by Naser Oric.
Asked to comment on the different number of Serb casualties in the Srebrenica region, the Hague Tribunal's Office of the Prosecutor replied:
"First of all, the OTP is always very careful in the use of the word 'victim'. Military or Police casualties from combat should not be considered victims in a criminal investigation context, in the same way people are victims from war crimes, such as summary executions.
Before speaking about the whole area of Podrinja, including at least the municipalities of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica and Skelani, I would comment on the various figures circulating around the Kravica attack of January 1993. The figures circulating of hundreds of victims or claiming that all 353 inhabitants were 'virtually completely destroyed' do not reflect the reality.
During the attack by the BH army on Kravica, Jezestica, Opravdici, Mandici and the surrounding villages (the larger area of Kravica), on the 7th & 8th January 1993, 43 people were killed, according to our information. Our investigation shows that 13 of the 43 were obviously civilians. Our findings are matching with the Bratunac Brigade military reports of battle casualties which are believed in the OTP to be very reliable because they are internal VRS reports.
For the whole region, i.e the municipalities of Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica and Skelani, the Serb authorities claimed previously that about 1400 people were killed due to attacks committed by the BH Army forces for the period of May 1992 to March 1995, when Srebrenica was under the control of Naser Oric. Now the figure has become 3,500 Serbs killed. This figure may have been inflated. Taking the term 'victims' as defined previously, these figures just does not reflect the reality..."
And let us not forget how it all started:
In April 1992, Serb forces with the help of the Yugoslav People's Army carried out a widespread ethnic cleansing of the Bosniak population of Podrinje, the Drina Valley of Eastern Bosnia where Srebrenica is located. Serb Army stationed around Srebrenica never demilitarized, even though they were required to do so under the 1993 demilitarization agreements. In 1992, approximately 100,000 Bosniaks had been expelled from their homes in Eastern Bosnia. Additionally, at least 11,391 Bosniaks lost their lives in the region in 1992, three years before the Srebrenica genocide. Serb forces stationed around Srebrenica constantly attacked neighbouring Bosniak villages, frequently bombarding them from air and with Serbian airplanes. Hundreds of Bosnian Muslim villages were destroyed around Srebrenica in 1992.
Thanks for reposting my response.
I've summarised the long story of this saga on my blog:
http://danielsimpson.wordpress.com/2009/12/23/media-lens-lying-balkans/
I notice that Herman and Peterson don't mention Srebrenica Genocide Blog in their references to the notional Bosnia Genocide Lobby. I also noticed that they chose to reference Ed Vulliamy's open letter to Samaha's blog, which although firmly committed to truth and justice for the victims of Srebrenica and Bosnia generally is a relatively quiet, sporadic blog, rather than to this very active and overtly campaigning blog.
I wonder whether they avoid reference to this haunt of supporters of Truth and Justice for the Victims of Bosnian Genocide because they have a good idea how much factual evidence their innocent supporters might suddenly find themselves confronted with.
Daniel Simpson: I've included your blog in a list of "Friendly Blogs." (see left-side screen under the heading "What We're Reading") Kudos to your dignified response to genocide denier Edward S. Herman.
@ Owen: I also noticed that Herman's latest response was somewhat 'mellow' and much more cautious than anticipated. Herman is part of the "Srebrenica Genocide Denial Lobby." He always uses same-old and deliberately misleading arguments to prove his point. One would expect to read something new from him, but it's the same old diatribe over and over again. His arguments (all of them) have already been discredited and proven deliberately-misleading for quite some time.
Herman did have some success with spreading lies about Naser Oric. He repeatedly portrayed Oric as a war criminal. True, Oric was a controversial figure, but he was not a war criminal. Oric was nothing but a dignified soldier. I know that many Serbs read my comments and they post nasty responses - which I regularly "Reject" - so I will repeat the truth again and again: There were no massacres of Serb civilians around Srebrenica. The International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) found no evidence of any massacres of Serbs around Srebrenica. Owen, you know how much I despised Naser Oric? But, thanks to the Hague Tribunal, I realized that Naser Oric was nothing more but a dignified soldier who deserved our respect for defending Srebrenica. Those who criticize him, like Ibran Mustafic, never participated in the defence of the Enclave. In fact, there are strong suspicions that Ibran Mustafic was spying for the Serbs in a besieged Enclave.
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